I'm lawyering the shit out of some Chicago red light camera extortion

"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein) 08/25/2015 at 17:18 • Filed to: None

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A few weeks ago my gf and I went on a quick weekend visit to Chicago. Yesterday, I got a Chicago red light camera ticket in the mail. The pictures on the ticket clearly show me making a legal right turn. I’m not a lawyer, but I can look up some stupid red light camera laws with the best of them.

The pictures above show there’s no sign prohibiting right turns on red at this intersection. In the first picture, my car is at the white stop line and has its brake lights and right turn signal on (OMG A BMW DRIVER USING A TURN SIGNAL). You can’t see the tiny time stamps in this crappy scan from my office copier, but the pictures were taken 2.2 seconds apart. Since my car only moved like 10 feet in those 2.2 seconds, there was definitely time for me to have come to a stop.

You have the option to contest this ticket in person or by mail. Since I live in Madison, WI which is 150 miles away from Chicago, I’m doing it by mail. One of the several reasons you are allowed to contest a ticket is:

The facts alleged in the violation notice are inconsistent or do not support a finding that Section 9-8-020(c) was violated .

So....I looked up the relevant laws and basically they say as long as you come to a complete stop at a red light, yield to any oncoming traffic or pedestrians (which there weren’t) and there isn’t a no-right-on-red sign, you’re good to go. So I’m sending the citation back with the Contest By Mail box checked, and the following sternly worded letter that I wrote:

(After a couple suggestions I’ve removed any statements that claimed I made a full stop and instead only say there is no evidence to prove I didn’t make a full stop.)

August 25, 2015

(My contact info)

City of Chicago Department of Finance
PO Box 88292
Chicago, IL 60680

Re: Ticket Number ______

Dear City of Chicago Department of Finance:

I am contesting this ticket, and am contesting by mail rather than in person because I live in Madison, WI. Pursuant to my rights to contest this citation if the facts alleged in the violation notice do not support a finding that section 9-8-020(c) Chicago Municipal code was violated, I demand that ticket number _____ be immediately dismissed.

Chicago Municipal Code Section 9-8-020(c) states:

c. Steady Red Indication.

1. Except as provided in Section 9-16-030, vehicular traffic facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown.

Chicago Municipal Code Section 9-16-030 states:

Turns on red signals

a. Except as provided in subsection (c), the driver of a vehicle may turn right when facing a steady red signal; provided, however, he may do so only from the lane closest to the right-hand curb or edge of roadway, must come to a full stop and must yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.
…
c. Drivers may not turn left or right on a steady red signal when official traffic-control devices have been erected indicating that such turns are prohibited.

The pictures included in the citation clearly establish the following facts:

1. The first picture shows my vehicle in the right lane of W Van Buren St at S Western Ave, in front of the marked stop line, with its brake lights and right turn signal illuminated.

2. The second picture shows my vehicle making a right turn from the right lane of W Van Buren Street to head north on S Western Ave.

3. The second picture shows there were no pedestrians or other traffic present at the time my vehicle made a right turn from the right lane of W Van Buren St to S Western Ave.

4. The time stamp on the first image is 12:33:03.7 and the second image is 12:33:05.9, indicating a 2.2 second gap between the first and second images.

5. The first and second pictures both show that no official traffic-control devices have been erected at this intersection indicating that right turns on a steady red traffic signal are prohibited.

These facts lead to the following conclusions:

1. Because there are no official traffic-control devices indicating that right turns on red lights are prohibited at the intersection of W Van Buren St and S Western Ave, Chicago Municipal Code 9-16-030(c) does not apply, and thus it is acceptable to make right turns on red lights from W Van Buren St to S Western Ave, if the conditions in Chicago Municipal Code 9-16-030(a) are met.

2. Because there are no pedestrians or oncoming traffic present in the second picture, the requirement in section 9-16-030(a) to yield right-of-way to pedestrians or oncoming traffic does not apply.

3. Because section 9-16-030(c), and the yield requirement of section 9-16-030(a) do not apply, in order to prove that I violated section 9-8-020(c), the City of Chicago would need to prove that my vehicle did not come to a complete stop at the white stop line.

4. Because the 2.2 seconds elapsed between the first picture (which shows my vehicle in front of the white stop line with its brake lights illuminated) and the second picture (which shows my vehicle making a right turn) is sufficient time for my vehicle to have come to a complete stop, these two pictures do not provide sufficient evidence that my vehicle did not come to a complete stop at the white stop line.

I therefore submit that because there is no evidence presented in the citation that suggests I violated Chicago Municipal Code sections 9-8-020(c) or 9-16-030, this this citation is invalid, and it must be dropped immediately.

Sincerely,

(Me)

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:21

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Translation:

MonkeePuzzle > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:22

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no brakes in the first pic, perhaps they got you for rolling through, not a complete stop

Takuro Spirit > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:24

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YEAH, STICK IT TO THEM FIBS!!!

Kailand09 > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:24

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Yeah those things are such bull.

They also decrease yellow light length at those lights.

It’s very well known too. I don’t get how they get away with it.

Ash78, voting early and often > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:25

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Be careful. Start simple and plain English, since you’re talking about a low-level court clerk who’s going to see this first. I’d recommend a simple explanation and maybe just reference the other sections without re-listing them in full.

I’ve learned from experience that if you show up with an axe to grind (even if you’re right), you’re wasting your time.

jariten1781 > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:27

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I’m betting the camera thought you were in the center lane based on the width and positioning. You should be good.

Brickman > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:27

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I wonder if that old corolla got a ticket. He’s way past the white line.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:29

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They won’t give a shit, they will make you come to court in some shitty neighborhood.

ttyymmnn > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:29

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Playing devil’s advocate here: The first picture shows you with brake lights on at the white line. But are you sure you were at a full stop at the line? Did you roll over the line to look for oncoming traffic?

Jonathan Harper > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:30

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If it’s so obvious you’re in the right, just plead not guilty and show up at court and explain your situation. Shouldn’t need a lawyer. The lawyer is for when you’ve actually done something wrong ;)

TheOnelectronic > Kailand09 08/25/2015 at 17:31

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TheOnelectronic > MonkeePuzzle 08/25/2015 at 17:32

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I doubt they could make a point about full stops based on still images.

But if they wanted to, I think by the book in Illinois you’re required to stop for something absurd like 5 seconds before continuing. They might say the camera takes pictures every 3 seconds, ergo clearly you did not come to a legally defined “full stop.”

Textured Soy Protein > ttyymmnn 08/25/2015 at 17:33

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Don’t matter if that’s what happened, their only evidence is a photo of my car at the white line, and another photo 2.2 seconds later of my car making a turn. The car has only moved like 15 feet in those 2.2 seconds.

Bytemite > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:33

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Why did you cover up your license plate?

I am really trying to figure out why people do this shit. Please tell me.

Skamanda > MonkeePuzzle 08/25/2015 at 17:33

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Plus he’s awful far away from the curb. The system could’ve figured he wasn’t adequately in the turn lane, and decided he was attempting a turn from the middle of 3 effective lanes there.

Textured Soy Protein > Jonathan Harper 08/25/2015 at 17:33

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I’m doing it by mail because I live 150 miles from Chicago.

Also, I’m not actually using a lawyer. Just calling the letter I wrote “lawyering.”

Textured Soy Protein > MonkeePuzzle 08/25/2015 at 17:34

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Hard to see from the shitty scan by my office copier, but the brake lights are on.

Also the third image is a crop of the first.

Textured Soy Protein > Brickman 08/25/2015 at 17:35

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That’s a Camry. :o

Textured Soy Protein > Bytemite 08/25/2015 at 17:35

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Anonymity or somesuch thing.

Textured Soy Protein > TheOnelectronic 08/25/2015 at 17:36

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The only thing the law that this citation was written against says is:

the driver of a vehicle may turn right when facing a steady red signal; provided, however, he may do so only from the lane closest to the right-hand curb or edge of roadway, must come to a full stop and must yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.

Brickman > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:38

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The Altima made it look smaller :P

Tareim - V8 powered > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:38

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holy sheeet is that a BMW with a working indicator?

Textured Soy Protein > Tareim - V8 powered 08/25/2015 at 17:39

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That in and of itself should excuse me from the ticket!

mr2gud2u > Jonathan Harper 08/25/2015 at 17:41

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The bullshit is that the OP is still out lawyer costs.

Textured Soy Protein > Skamanda 08/25/2015 at 17:43

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I thought about that, but if you look at this google street view shot, there’s a bunch of street parking and then a fire hydrant at the corner. Plus no marked right turn lane.

uofime-2 > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:44

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Best of luck to you.

you’ll probably just get some BS message back saying that their system says you didn’t stop and you must pay the fine, also your fine payment is now late and there will be a fee.

ask me how I know!

Pay your Chicago corruption tax and move along

Textured Soy Protein > uofime-2 08/25/2015 at 17:48

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THIS SHALL NOT STAND! I WILL FIGHT TO MY LAST DYING BREATH!

(Something something overly heroic fighting corruption ok where’s the beer?)

Textured Soy Protein > mr2gud2u 08/25/2015 at 17:50

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I didn’t use a lawyer, I wrote the letter myself. Me writing a lawyerly letter = “lawyering”

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 17:59

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I predict they’ll offer to settle for a lesser amount. They really want the money and don’t care how legally questionable it is.

lone_liberal > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 18:05

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Good luck! You’re definitely fighting an uphill battle against a corrupt system.

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 18:11

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Pretty sure this is a known scandal in the scandal masquerading as a city called Chicago.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/…

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-red-li…

Chargingstar - E92 M3 pilot > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 18:16

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I’m not sure how Chicago’s red light camera system works - but the system we had in our city sent photos to the cited driver and the video to the court. Be prepared for that before making any statements on the record that can be refuted with video.

BorkBorkBjork > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 18:18

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They will have a video of the incident, fyi.

Textured Soy Protein > Chargingstar - E92 M3 pilot 08/25/2015 at 18:22

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That’s a good idea. I’ll make sure that I don’t write anything that claims I came to a complete stop, and re-word to only say that the evidence provided with the citation is not sufficient to prove I didn’t come to a complete stop.

Turbo666 > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 18:23

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Actually they most likely have video as well. If you did not actually come to a complete stop for _____ amount of seconds (depends on state), you will get a red light ticket. Went through this with someone last year, who thought they remembered making a clean stop. There was actually a link to the video as well as the photos. The photos made it look like a stop but the video clearly shows it as a rolling stop.

If you did come to a complete stop, then you should be fine, if not...best of luck and hope they don’t have video!

Steve in Manhattan > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 18:32

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Well I AM a lawyer, and I think you did a fine job on that letter. Places I’ve lived: MD - right turn on red after stop. DC - same. NY - right turn on red only if there’s a sign permitting it. WI - I forget.

michael bleggi > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 18:47

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don’t hold me to this but i think what people are missing is that in some states, if there is no turning lane, you can’t advance on red, no matter what. you can turn right on red from a turning lane.... i may be wrong tho

michael bleggi > michael bleggi 08/25/2015 at 18:48

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it would however make sense, as it seems they are giving you a ticket based on little evidence of you running anything, unless they know that no one should advance during a redlight at this specific intersection, due to the lack of a turning lane

Textured Soy Protein > michael bleggi 08/25/2015 at 19:00

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Chicago Municipal Code Section 9-8-020(c) states:

c. Steady Red Indication.

1. Except as provided in Section 9-16-030, vehicular traffic facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown.

Chicago Municipal Code Section 9-16-030 states:

Turns on red signals

a. Except as provided in subsection (c), the driver of a vehicle may turn right when facing a steady red signal; provided, however, he may do so only from the lane closest to the right-hand curb or edge of roadway, must come to a full stop and must yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.
…
c. Drivers may not turn left or right on a steady red signal when official traffic-control devices have been erected indicating that such turns are prohibited.

Textured Soy Protein > Turbo666 08/25/2015 at 19:02

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I can’t remember 100% if I came to a clean stop or rolled through. All I know is in the first picture, there’s a car driving right in front of me, so I have to believe there’s a good chance I came to a clean stop.

But just in case I re-worded the letter to make sure that I only talk about there’s no evidence in the photos they’ve provided that I didn’t come to a clean stop, and hopefully there’s no video.

BigBlock440 > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 22:22

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Good luck, more people should do this.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2015 at 22:34

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You can also contest under Illinois Compiled Statutes Title 5 (Illinois Vehicle Code)

Citation is 625 ILCS 5/11-306(c)(3).

You have to make sure there is no City or County ordinance prohibiting what you did. As long as there is no sign prohibiting the same, you should be good either way.

Just be prepared to spend more than $100 in court costs.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > TheOnelectronic 08/25/2015 at 22:37

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625 ILCS 5/11-306 doesn’t state a stop requirement for time dwell, but there may be other sections that mention that.

Kailand09 > TheOnelectronic 08/25/2015 at 22:48

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sigh...

Tohru > Textured Soy Protein 08/29/2015 at 01:42

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One day Chicago will fall into Lake Michigan and the entire Midwest will be better for it.

Textured Soy Protein > Tohru 08/29/2015 at 10:35

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Since I might be moving to Chicago soon, I’d prefer it remain intact.

Tohru > Textured Soy Protein 08/29/2015 at 15:29

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Are you moving there voluntarily? Blink twice if you’re being held against your will

Sam > Textured Soy Protein 09/02/2015 at 18:20

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Worst comes to worse, there’s always the old stand-by. Request that the traffic camera appear against you in court.

wordtrey2 > Textured Soy Protein 04/07/2016 at 21:37

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I’m in a similar situation.

Bad news: There is almost surely a video.

www.redlightviolations.com

Vak Desser > Textured Soy Protein 10/25/2017 at 19:46

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Wait! This same exact thing just happened to my wife!! How’d your appeal go?